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Age of Marriage – Between Agnosticism and Islam  
2 September 2025

Scribed and collected by: Khalid AL Khaja

 

Core Topic

The following debate centers on the Islamic concept of marriage, specifically addressing the criticism that the Quran (65:4) permits child marriage by mentioning the waiting period (Iddah) for women who have not yet menstruated.

“As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery. And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them” Quran (65:4).

Please find below the script of this fascinating dialogue that touched on deep issues of law, culture, ethics, and modern versus traditional values. I leave you to your own judgment.

The Script of the Dialogue

Agnostic: I have 2 questions regarding Iddah (العِدَّة) in Quran for divorced women - period of waiting during which a widow or a divorce may not remarry. There is a verse that mentions women who did not have period yet, meaning they are less than 13 years old. Meaning, that woman has got married as child. 

Muslim: First, I would like to understand before answering this question. You are Arab, right?

Agnostic: Right!

Muslim: Are you a non-Muslim or … ?

Agnostic: Originally, I used to be a Muslim. But after reading the Quran and noticing so many contradictions in it, I became Agnostic.

Muslim: You used the term “Child”. So, let me ask you a question: What is a child?

Agnostic: What is this question? A child is a child!

Muslim: Hold on! If you ask me what Islam is, I cannot just say: Islam is Islam! We are having a conversation, and you used a term in this conversation. We need to clarify this term in order for us to reach a conclusion. You were referring to a child girl who gets married when she is 13 years old, meaning you define a 13-year-old as a child. That was the definition you gave when you were speaking. Right?

Agnostic: Right!

Muslim: So, then I’m asking you first: What is a child? We need to define terms before we move on with our conversation. So, what is a child? For example, with all due respect to you, if I call you a child you might be insulted.

Agnostic: Yes!

Muslim: Sure. That is because you are not a child. That means there is a definition of what a child is and that definition doesn’t fit you. So, tell me, what is the definition of a child?

Agnostic: A child is: Someone in the process of growing up and becoming mature. Someone whose organs are completed. I mean, even the brain gets biologically completed.

Muslim: So, that is a big problem! Because the full brain development happens to women at the age of 25 ( https://shine365.marshfieldclinic.org/kids-health/boys-girls-maturity-gap/ ). Meaning you are saying, every girl under the age of 25 is a child! Of course, that makes no sense. So, when you say a child is someone who is not mature, which is another term you are using. If maturity is not about brain development, then what is maturity?

In every dictionary in human history, a child is defined as someone under the age of puberty ( https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/child ). So, do you agree with this definition?

Agnostic: Yes! But they are not adult enough.

Muslim: Being adult enough and not adult enough also require a definition. It’s not just based on what you think. So, what standard are you using to determine whether this person is an adult or not?

Agnostic: He should be capable of making decisions, he is mature enough to understand, and his organs are completed.

Muslim: So, based on your criteria, which is simply your personal opinion and not a medical opinion, hence I don’t agree with, every woman watching this program under the age of 25 is a child, and that includes every 24, 23, 22 and 21 years old, since their brains are not fully developed yet?!

Agnostic: No! You started with me with different definitions of maturity and child.

Muslim: I told you that an adult is someone who reaches the age of puberty. I told you that this definition is in every dictionary. You said that you disagree.

Agnostic: You are taking me away from the subject.

Muslim: No, I am not taking you away from the subject! Because your subject is about marriage of women who are not yet adults. That is the whole subject you are trying to bring now.

Agnostic: Please, let me continue! Even physically they are not yet mature enough. There is even a different medicine dosage (for children) and after 18 years old you can give him adult doses of Panadol, because he is not yet mature enough to receive adult doses of medication. That means, someone below 18 is not biologically mature. Do you understand?!

Muslim: No! Why do I need to accept that magically, if a person is 17 years old, 364 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes according to you he is a child, but after 1 minute he becomes an adult! I don’t accept this without giving me any reason. I don’t accept this idea that 18 is a criterion, just because some in the West - not all - told you that!

The overwhelming majority of the world right now say the age of consent is 16 and not 18. In USA, it is 16, 15 and 14 with judge and parental agreement. There are hundreds of thousands of child marriages happening in California every year. Research it right now!

Agnostic: You are changing the topic!

Muslim: No! I didn’t. I am responding to what you said. In fact, it is you who has moved positions multiple times during the discussion. I asked you what a child was, and you could not give me an answer, and you said, “A child is a child”! Then I said a child is someone who reaches puberty. Then you said: No! It is a matter of organ and brain development. I told you: Then you are calling everyone under the age of 25 a child. Then you said: No, it is 18 and Panadol, prescription … etc. without giving us a reason.

Agnostic: I am talking about common sense. But you are going deep into the definition of a child, the maturity, as if you want to put me in a corner.

Muslim: I am not trying to put you in a corner. With all respect, I am trying to un-brainwash you! What do I mean by that? You are brainwashed to think that an adult is someone who is 18 years old, and I am giving you the example of 17 years, 364 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes to make you understand common sense. It is not common sense to say when someone is 17 years, 364 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes is a child, but 1 minute later they become an adult. Common sense it to look at case by case scenario. Common sense is to look at old human history. We don’t apply fallacies of presentism by applying your current day modern standards on the past, which is different. We don’t apply things one past that we do today!

Historically, an adult is always someone who is over the age of puberty. That was always the case. We are not going to change it today just because some people feel a certain way. Feelings don’t change realities. The reality was and always is, a child is someone under the age of puberty. Now, you want to tell me: No! I don’t agree with this definition. Then I will ask you to provide your rational, reasonable and evidence-based definition, and I am going to accept it.

When I ask all these questions, you say (criticizing): You want to go deep! Of course we need to go deep. That is how we answer questions. People get confused when they stay on an ignorant surface level. No! When we get into the nitty-gritty and details, and realize the reality of things, then we realize: Oh! I thought there was an issue here, but the issue is in my understanding, not in the reality that there is a problem. Now, I have said all of this because you mentioned age 13, and you said: it is (an age of) a child. That is when I asked you what a child is? Because I don’t agree with that statement.

Agnostic: So, is the definition of a child, is anyone under the age of puberty?

Muslim: I am saying that is a definition in human history and in every dictionary, and I have no problem in taking that.

Agnostic: Ok! Can we continue to answer my question based on the definition that a child is someone under the age of puberty?

Muslim: I will add one more thing and then you can continue with your question. If we both accept that a child is someone under the age of puberty, do women hit puberty under the age of 13?

Agnostic: Yes, some!

Muslim: Ok! Then to say that a 13-year-old equals a child is incorrect. Women can reach puberty even between the age of 8 to 14 as per NHS - National Health Services in the UK ( https://www.healthiertogether.nhs.uk/young-person/puberty ). It is not my stats! Early puberty can be as early as 8 years old, and it can be as late as 14. Therefore, I disagree with a definition that defines a child as someone at the age of 13. So, now that we agree on who a child is, go ahead and ask your question.

Agnostic: So, as per Quran, those women who did not get to puberty age, after divorce, they have to observe Iddah (العِدَّة) - period of waiting during which a widow or a divorce may not remarry –  meaning women are married before the age of puberty. Is that correct?!

Muslim: Yes! The Islamic contract of marriage does not need an age, so you can do it with a baby, no problem. But there is a difference between doing a marriage contract and doing an intercourse. There are many people who do a marriage contract with someone abroad, because doing marriage contract does not necessitate physical intercourse. We have to separate these two things. Now, we should not misunderstand the idea of marriage in the west and apply it to Islam. Meaning, I can do marriage contracts with someone without consummation of the marriage.

Agnostic: Why would you want to do that?!

Muslim: That is a great question. Islamic scholars have talked about this for hundreds of years. For example, a father sees a very great person and he wants to secure his marriage to his daughter, so he will ask him to do a marriage contract with his daughter until she gets to the age of puberty and then consummate the marriage. Father does that in order to secure that great person for his daughter.

Another example is when the father is very poor and cannot take financial responsibility for his daughter. But his daughter is not yet ready for consummation. So, he finds a man and gives him this marriage contract so that he (the husband) takes care of her financially and wait for her to reach puberty before the consummation takes place. Scholars consider such act (marriage) beneficial. But at the end, the reality is that consummation and marriage are not the same in Islam.

Agnostic: Let’s say when this child gets matured, she doesn’t like the guy (husband), so can she divorce him?

Muslim: Yes! The scholars have put conditions for the father who wants to do marriage contract for his daughter who has not reached puberty. First, only the father can do that, not the grandfather, not the uncle, not the brother or anybody else. Second, there has to be a long-term benefit for the child in this marriage contract, and the father doesn’t have the capacity to do the marriage contract for any other reasons. Third, imam Al-Shaafii (one of the 4 major scholars and jurists) mentions, when she reaches the age of puberty or maturity, she is asked if she is ok or not with the marriage. Why? Based on the Hadith of the prophet (ﷺ): “لا تُنكَحُ البِكْرُ حَتَّى تُسْتَأذَن”, meaning the virgin must not be married till her permission is asked. So, imam Al-Shaafii says: When she reaches the age of puberty, then she is asked based on this hadith (narration) if she is ok, and if she wasn’t then that marriage would not continue, because her agreement is necessary in this case (at this point). Maturity in Islam is at the age of puberty, and that is why in Islam - man or woman - you are accountable for your deeds after the age of puberty, as that is when you are considered an adult Islamically.

So, which father is going to want harm for his daughter?! Someone might say: What if her father is evil! Ok, if this evil father does marriage contract that is not for the benefit of the child, the judge can then break this marriage, and the father would get punished.

Agnostic: But it is not the father who is getting married, it is the girl who is getting married. She has no choice if the father decides. It should be her choice and not his (the father).

Muslim: Didn’t we already answer this point?! Look, there are two things her: The father is not the one who is going to get married, but the father is the experienced parent who gave birth to this girl and wants good for her. I think you are a mother, and you are sitting next to your son - and probably he is the one who is bringing all these issues - and you would not want harm for them (your children). That father would look (at his kids) in the same way you’re looking at your kids.

Agnostic: There are other fathers who sell their daughters. Right?!

Muslim: I already responded to that. You have to pay attention to what I am saying. I already told you that there are two conditions: One is that the father has to do it for the benefit of the girl, and if he doesn’t, judge can break the marriage and punish the father, as it is not up to the father to do whatever he wants to do. Second, I told you that the girl who is married, when she reaches age of puberty, has the right to break that marriage contract (ask for divorce) based on imam Al-Shaafii’s opinion.

Agnostic: I don’t think at that age she is able to make a good decision.

Muslim: Well, that is your opinion. With all due respect, you are not a psychologist to decide when people are able to make decisions or not! Why do we need to accept your opinion, on whether she is ready or not ready?!

Agnostic: I raised my child, and I know at that age they are not mature enough.

Muslim: That is not evidence. There are a million people who raise their child.

Agnostic: To be honest, there is no common sense.

Muslim: You cannot use the word “common sense” when you talk about yourself, because common sense is applicable to people. Generally, if I bring 100 people and ask them something, then 99 of them would agree and that is what common sense is. Now, in reality, you haven’t started with common sense at all in this conversation, and everything I have presented so far is not my opinion. I have presented to you opinions of people who are experts.

Agnostic: So, do you believe a girl who is 14 years old can decide her future with a man that she is going to get married to and raise children with, and to decide that he is the one who is enough for her?

Muslim: Let me answer you. It is not for her to decide alone! That is why Islam has a guardianship “Waly” الوَلي system, wherein, even if the girl agrees, the father or the Waly has to agree. Because that father, guardian or waly, is experienced in life. No women are men, and they don’t know the psychology of men, but men understand the psychology of men, which is why the Waly will look and see. The girl might accept him, but the Waly may not find him good (suitable). Fathers (experienced) will ask and investigate to determine if the marriage can take place. So, the answer to your question: Islam doesn’t say the girl will decide alone, that is not the Islamic system.

The system you’re concerned with exists in the west, where an 18-year-old girl, according to your western standards, is going to choose the husband, and look at the 18-year-old girls of today. Are they able to determine and choose the right husband? (of course, not)! Why is the west full of divorces and full of women that are aborting their children in millions every day? And women that are broken? Women pregnant and with children at the age of 15 and 16? Why?!

This is the western standard! Islam has a Waly (guardian) system. It is not just about emotions. A girl can fall in love with man’s words and doesn’t see his true nature. The father (the guardian) isn’t going to do that. The father who cares about his daughter and her interests, or the Waly (the guardian) is (aware of men nature).

Agnostic: I live in Arabic society. Let me tell you that here everything is in secret. Even the children may not be your children because the husband and the women are cheating in secret. They do more (wrong) than west.

Muslim: No! That is exaggeration. I am an Arab as well. You are not telling some random Westerner what is going on (in Arabic countries). So, as an Arab who lived in many Arabic countries and continuously visit Arabic countries due to what I do, I know very well how things are in the Arabic communities. Nobody said that the Arabic communities are perfect. But to say all kids are (illegal) and everything is happening (in secret) is of course exaggeration. That is not true to any extent. Thanks to Allah, we have values as Muslims and as Arabic people generally. We are very protective and jealous. We have very strong protective jealousy. Even non-Muslim Arabs, even Christian Arabs, and Jewish Arabs (have very strong protective jealousy). It’s within our culture. This protective jealousy makes us take care of our family members, the female ones, and that they are not going around doing incorrect things. This exists in Arabic cultures generally, not just in Muslim cultures.

Agnostic: I disagree with you. I am 50 years old!

Muslim: These are your opinions. You have not provided evidence. Anyone can say opinions and you can say I agree, or I disagree. It doesn’t prove anything until you give me stats and evidence and things that can be proven. Anyone can say there is a secret. Your experience is limited to those you know who are 20, 30, 100, 2000 people or even 10,000 people - if you have met so many people in your life. How can you apply (the experience of) 10,000 to hundreds of millions of people? You cannot do that. So, even if your experience is true, it is not proof. Anyone can speak of secret societies. That cannot be proven. If you don’t provide evidence, it (your opinion) is just a claim.

Now, let me ask you a question: A girl hits the age of puberty, between the age of 8 to 14, when they are - what we call - teenagers, which can go up to 19. When they are at that age, are they sexually active and do they have sexual desires?

Agnostic: Yes!

Muslim: Ok. What is your solution for that, especially when they are surrounded by, as in the west, by boyfriends and girlfriends, and loving each other and telling each other words, social media of women, Kim Kardashian, pornography, and all of this stuff. In this day and age, tell me, until they reach your perfect age, how do you fix that (sexual desires)?

Agnostic: They can do whatever they want, but we should first educate them. It is ok to have sex, why not?!

Muslim: Let me get this straight. So, it is a problem (for teenagers) to get married to a 30-year-old man, but it is not a problem for a 13-year-old girl to go around sleeping with men and do whatever she likes?!

Agnostic: you mean a 13-year-old, or teenager like 16, 17?

Mulsim: Teenager is teens, 13 (thirteen), 14 (fourteen), it is all teen. You hear the word teens (13, 14, 15, 16, 17) all of this is teenager.

Agnostic: Okay! Of course, I have sex but not to get married. Marriage is a big word, it is not something easy, it means house, raising children!

Muslim: With all due respect, you are an example of why the west is destructed and of why there is no common sense in whatever you are saying. Because your issue is no longer about the age that they will have sex. It’s about the sanctimony and honor and the protection which marriage gives.

You are proposing what has destroyed the west today, with girls at the age of 13 and 14 shagging boys under and behind trees in Oxford and Cambridge and having them pregnant at the age of 15 and 16 despite sexual educations in the school and practicing safe sex, leading to hundreds of millions of abortions (which are massacres, killing babies yearly), leading to girls who are psychologically traumatized by these boys who knocked them up, and leading to single mother homes - see the book THE BOY CRISIS by Warren Farrell which talks about how the biggest criminals in the west come from single parent homes - which are products of what you are proposing: Letting teenage girls have sex and do whatever they want when they are young.

On the contrary, you say the problem is marriage, which is the solution. Why is marriage the solution? Because it is under the guardianship and supervision of parents – the family is involved – and it is not shady thing happening in secrets behind closed doors. For you, the problem is not a kid who is going to come and tell a girl few words and then do what he wants and then go to the next one. No! There are responsibilities. You want to get married? Okey, you have got to man up, take care of the girl, have intercourse with her and put your money where your mouth is, and you are responsible also to her family.

Now you have a problem with that, which solves western problems and general problems of the world, because it comes from the creator, and you are proposing: Have intercourse all you like, no problem. And you say: Common sense!!!

Agnostic: Yes, because you are talking about western society like (troubled society) and you are seeing Arabic societies as something better, while it is not.

Muslim: I am not here to defend the Arabic society. I am here to defend Islam. Yes, the Muslim society is better a million times.

Agnostic: The highest rate of rapping is in our countries, the Muslim society. 

Muslim: Which country? That is false. Cite the statistics that you are quoting right now. You did not cite any statistics or any country. You just randomly said: The highest rape is in Arab countries. That’s it. That is a lie.

Agnostic: Yeah, I will give you. I have read it before.

Muslim: Ok! Google it right now. There is nothing you could give. But, let me give you actual statistics rather than making things up, without even giving a country. I will give you an example. Look at France. There is a calligraph study in France that happened about sexual harassment in busses, and the result was 100% sexual harassment. They surveyed around 600 women. All of them reported sexual harassment on busses or public transportation!

Look at biggest study done by the European Union, it’s called “Violence Against Women: Every Day and Everywhere” (https://fra.europa.eu/en/news/2014/violence-against-women-every-day-and-everywhere) and they talk to you about the stats in the west. They are not talking about any Muslim country. They are talking about western America. It’s the biggest study done by the EU. These are actual studies being presented. On the other hand, you’re just saying stuff without any proof.

Let’s finalize this discussion, because I have answered what you wanted to ask. Now, do you have any other questions for me that I can answer before I let you go? Last question.

Agnostic: No, it’s ok. No more questions.

Muslim: No worries. Hopefully, you will return to common sense and reality before you die. Because when you die, the west and having intercourse during your teens are not going to save you. It is pleasure talking to you!

https://youtu.be/CXLU_RiHFrk?si=cgyHhQg_4faGlVzn

Outcome

The discussion ends without agreement. The Agnostic remains convinced that “child marriage” is harmful and that young girls cannot consent, while the Muslim maintains that the Islamic system - when properly understood and applied - is logical, protective, and superior to the destructive Western alternatives.

Conclusion: Who is More Factual?

On the specific topic of Islamic law, the Muslim is more factual. His description of the classical legal doctrine, the separation of contract and consummation, the age of puberty as a legal milestone, and the theoretical safeguards, is accurate from a theological and historical standpoint.

On the broader topic of child development and modern human rights  - that are based on liberal values ​​and absolute individual freedom - the Muslim is also more factual and accurate. The Agnostic’s concerns are based on common and general knowledge and the modern understanding of maturity and the documented harms of child marriage as a global practice.

In essence, they are arguing on two different planes:

The Muslim is arguing from the perspective of theological and legal theory within a specific religious framework and observable social consequences. The Agnostic is arguing from the perspective of modern human rights, and observable social consequences.

The Muslim's facts about his own religion are correct, but they describe an ideal system. The Agnostic's opinion about the potential for abuse are correct, but they are applied to critique the Islamic system from the outside without fully engaging with its internal logic and safeguards.

The most factual view would be one that acknowledges both: the internal logic and rules of the Islamic legal tradition as it is written, while also recognizing the valid modern criticisms of how those rules can manifest in practice.

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Age of Marriage – Between Agnosticism and Islam  
2 September 2025

Scribed and collected by: Khalid AL Khaja

 

Core Topic

The following debate centers on the Islamic concept of marriage, specifically addressing the criticism that the Quran (65:4) permits child marriage by mentioning the waiting period (Iddah) for women who have not yet menstruated.

“As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery. And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them” Quran (65:4).

Please find below the script of this fascinating dialogue that touched on deep issues of law, culture, ethics, and modern versus traditional values. I leave you to your own judgment.

The Script of the Dialogue

Agnostic: I have 2 questions regarding Iddah (العِدَّة) in Quran for divorced women - period of waiting during which a widow or a divorce may not remarry. There is a verse that mentions women who did not have period yet, meaning they are less than 13 years old. Meaning, that woman has got married as child. 

Muslim: First, I would like to understand before answering this question. You are Arab, right?

Agnostic: Right!

Muslim: Are you a non-Muslim or … ?

Agnostic: Originally, I used to be a Muslim. But after reading the Quran and noticing so many contradictions in it, I became Agnostic.

Muslim: You used the term “Child”. So, let me ask you a question: What is a child?

Agnostic: What is this question? A child is a child!

Muslim: Hold on! If you ask me what Islam is, I cannot just say: Islam is Islam! We are having a conversation, and you used a term in this conversation. We need to clarify this term in order for us to reach a conclusion. You were referring to a child girl who gets married when she is 13 years old, meaning you define a 13-year-old as a child. That was the definition you gave when you were speaking. Right?

Agnostic: Right!

Muslim: So, then I’m asking you first: What is a child? We need to define terms before we move on with our conversation. So, what is a child? For example, with all due respect to you, if I call you a child you might be insulted.

Agnostic: Yes!

Muslim: Sure. That is because you are not a child. That means there is a definition of what a child is and that definition doesn’t fit you. So, tell me, what is the definition of a child?

Agnostic: A child is: Someone in the process of growing up and becoming mature. Someone whose organs are completed. I mean, even the brain gets biologically completed.

Muslim: So, that is a big problem! Because the full brain development happens to women at the age of 25 ( https://shine365.marshfieldclinic.org/kids-health/boys-girls-maturity-gap/ ). Meaning you are saying, every girl under the age of 25 is a child! Of course, that makes no sense. So, when you say a child is someone who is not mature, which is another term you are using. If maturity is not about brain development, then what is maturity?

In every dictionary in human history, a child is defined as someone under the age of puberty ( https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/child ). So, do you agree with this definition?

Agnostic: Yes! But they are not adult enough.

Muslim: Being adult enough and not adult enough also require a definition. It’s not just based on what you think. So, what standard are you using to determine whether this person is an adult or not?

Agnostic: He should be capable of making decisions, he is mature enough to understand, and his organs are completed.

Muslim: So, based on your criteria, which is simply your personal opinion and not a medical opinion, hence I don’t agree with, every woman watching this program under the age of 25 is a child, and that includes every 24, 23, 22 and 21 years old, since their brains are not fully developed yet?!

Agnostic: No! You started with me with different definitions of maturity and child.

Muslim: I told you that an adult is someone who reaches the age of puberty. I told you that this definition is in every dictionary. You said that you disagree.

Agnostic: You are taking me away from the subject.

Muslim: No, I am not taking you away from the subject! Because your subject is about marriage of women who are not yet adults. That is the whole subject you are trying to bring now.

Agnostic: Please, let me continue! Even physically they are not yet mature enough. There is even a different medicine dosage (for children) and after 18 years old you can give him adult doses of Panadol, because he is not yet mature enough to receive adult doses of medication. That means, someone below 18 is not biologically mature. Do you understand?!

Muslim: No! Why do I need to accept that magically, if a person is 17 years old, 364 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes according to you he is a child, but after 1 minute he becomes an adult! I don’t accept this without giving me any reason. I don’t accept this idea that 18 is a criterion, just because some in the West - not all - told you that!

The overwhelming majority of the world right now say the age of consent is 16 and not 18. In USA, it is 16, 15 and 14 with judge and parental agreement. There are hundreds of thousands of child marriages happening in California every year. Research it right now!

Agnostic: You are changing the topic!

Muslim: No! I didn’t. I am responding to what you said. In fact, it is you who has moved positions multiple times during the discussion. I asked you what a child was, and you could not give me an answer, and you said, “A child is a child”! Then I said a child is someone who reaches puberty. Then you said: No! It is a matter of organ and brain development. I told you: Then you are calling everyone under the age of 25 a child. Then you said: No, it is 18 and Panadol, prescription … etc. without giving us a reason.

Agnostic: I am talking about common sense. But you are going deep into the definition of a child, the maturity, as if you want to put me in a corner.

Muslim: I am not trying to put you in a corner. With all respect, I am trying to un-brainwash you! What do I mean by that? You are brainwashed to think that an adult is someone who is 18 years old, and I am giving you the example of 17 years, 364 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes to make you understand common sense. It is not common sense to say when someone is 17 years, 364 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes is a child, but 1 minute later they become an adult. Common sense it to look at case by case scenario. Common sense is to look at old human history. We don’t apply fallacies of presentism by applying your current day modern standards on the past, which is different. We don’t apply things one past that we do today!

Historically, an adult is always someone who is over the age of puberty. That was always the case. We are not going to change it today just because some people feel a certain way. Feelings don’t change realities. The reality was and always is, a child is someone under the age of puberty. Now, you want to tell me: No! I don’t agree with this definition. Then I will ask you to provide your rational, reasonable and evidence-based definition, and I am going to accept it.

When I ask all these questions, you say (criticizing): You want to go deep! Of course we need to go deep. That is how we answer questions. People get confused when they stay on an ignorant surface level. No! When we get into the nitty-gritty and details, and realize the reality of things, then we realize: Oh! I thought there was an issue here, but the issue is in my understanding, not in the reality that there is a problem. Now, I have said all of this because you mentioned age 13, and you said: it is (an age of) a child. That is when I asked you what a child is? Because I don’t agree with that statement.

Agnostic: So, is the definition of a child, is anyone under the age of puberty?

Muslim: I am saying that is a definition in human history and in every dictionary, and I have no problem in taking that.

Agnostic: Ok! Can we continue to answer my question based on the definition that a child is someone under the age of puberty?

Muslim: I will add one more thing and then you can continue with your question. If we both accept that a child is someone under the age of puberty, do women hit puberty under the age of 13?

Agnostic: Yes, some!

Muslim: Ok! Then to say that a 13-year-old equals a child is incorrect. Women can reach puberty even between the age of 8 to 14 as per NHS - National Health Services in the UK ( https://www.healthiertogether.nhs.uk/young-person/puberty ). It is not my stats! Early puberty can be as early as 8 years old, and it can be as late as 14. Therefore, I disagree with a definition that defines a child as someone at the age of 13. So, now that we agree on who a child is, go ahead and ask your question.

Agnostic: So, as per Quran, those women who did not get to puberty age, after divorce, they have to observe Iddah (العِدَّة) - period of waiting during which a widow or a divorce may not remarry –  meaning women are married before the age of puberty. Is that correct?!

Muslim: Yes! The Islamic contract of marriage does not need an age, so you can do it with a baby, no problem. But there is a difference between doing a marriage contract and doing an intercourse. There are many people who do a marriage contract with someone abroad, because doing marriage contract does not necessitate physical intercourse. We have to separate these two things. Now, we should not misunderstand the idea of marriage in the west and apply it to Islam. Meaning, I can do marriage contracts with someone without consummation of the marriage.

Agnostic: Why would you want to do that?!

Muslim: That is a great question. Islamic scholars have talked about this for hundreds of years. For example, a father sees a very great person and he wants to secure his marriage to his daughter, so he will ask him to do a marriage contract with his daughter until she gets to the age of puberty and then consummate the marriage. Father does that in order to secure that great person for his daughter.

Another example is when the father is very poor and cannot take financial responsibility for his daughter. But his daughter is not yet ready for consummation. So, he finds a man and gives him this marriage contract so that he (the husband) takes care of her financially and wait for her to reach puberty before the consummation takes place. Scholars consider such act (marriage) beneficial. But at the end, the reality is that consummation and marriage are not the same in Islam.

Agnostic: Let’s say when this child gets matured, she doesn’t like the guy (husband), so can she divorce him?

Muslim: Yes! The scholars have put conditions for the father who wants to do marriage contract for his daughter who has not reached puberty. First, only the father can do that, not the grandfather, not the uncle, not the brother or anybody else. Second, there has to be a long-term benefit for the child in this marriage contract, and the father doesn’t have the capacity to do the marriage contract for any other reasons. Third, imam Al-Shaafii (one of the 4 major scholars and jurists) mentions, when she reaches the age of puberty or maturity, she is asked if she is ok or not with the marriage. Why? Based on the Hadith of the prophet (ﷺ): “لا تُنكَحُ البِكْرُ حَتَّى تُسْتَأذَن”, meaning the virgin must not be married till her permission is asked. So, imam Al-Shaafii says: When she reaches the age of puberty, then she is asked based on this hadith (narration) if she is ok, and if she wasn’t then that marriage would not continue, because her agreement is necessary in this case (at this point). Maturity in Islam is at the age of puberty, and that is why in Islam - man or woman - you are accountable for your deeds after the age of puberty, as that is when you are considered an adult Islamically.

So, which father is going to want harm for his daughter?! Someone might say: What if her father is evil! Ok, if this evil father does marriage contract that is not for the benefit of the child, the judge can then break this marriage, and the father would get punished.

Agnostic: But it is not the father who is getting married, it is the girl who is getting married. She has no choice if the father decides. It should be her choice and not his (the father).

Muslim: Didn’t we already answer this point?! Look, there are two things her: The father is not the one who is going to get married, but the father is the experienced parent who gave birth to this girl and wants good for her. I think you are a mother, and you are sitting next to your son - and probably he is the one who is bringing all these issues - and you would not want harm for them (your children). That father would look (at his kids) in the same way you’re looking at your kids.

Agnostic: There are other fathers who sell their daughters. Right?!

Muslim: I already responded to that. You have to pay attention to what I am saying. I already told you that there are two conditions: One is that the father has to do it for the benefit of the girl, and if he doesn’t, judge can break the marriage and punish the father, as it is not up to the father to do whatever he wants to do. Second, I told you that the girl who is married, when she reaches age of puberty, has the right to break that marriage contract (ask for divorce) based on imam Al-Shaafii’s opinion.

Agnostic: I don’t think at that age she is able to make a good decision.

Muslim: Well, that is your opinion. With all due respect, you are not a psychologist to decide when people are able to make decisions or not! Why do we need to accept your opinion, on whether she is ready or not ready?!

Agnostic: I raised my child, and I know at that age they are not mature enough.

Muslim: That is not evidence. There are a million people who raise their child.

Agnostic: To be honest, there is no common sense.

Muslim: You cannot use the word “common sense” when you talk about yourself, because common sense is applicable to people. Generally, if I bring 100 people and ask them something, then 99 of them would agree and that is what common sense is. Now, in reality, you haven’t started with common sense at all in this conversation, and everything I have presented so far is not my opinion. I have presented to you opinions of people who are experts.

Agnostic: So, do you believe a girl who is 14 years old can decide her future with a man that she is going to get married to and raise children with, and to decide that he is the one who is enough for her?

Muslim: Let me answer you. It is not for her to decide alone! That is why Islam has a guardianship “Waly” الوَلي system, wherein, even if the girl agrees, the father or the Waly has to agree. Because that father, guardian or waly, is experienced in life. No women are men, and they don’t know the psychology of men, but men understand the psychology of men, which is why the Waly will look and see. The girl might accept him, but the Waly may not find him good (suitable). Fathers (experienced) will ask and investigate to determine if the marriage can take place. So, the answer to your question: Islam doesn’t say the girl will decide alone, that is not the Islamic system.

The system you’re concerned with exists in the west, where an 18-year-old girl, according to your western standards, is going to choose the husband, and look at the 18-year-old girls of today. Are they able to determine and choose the right husband? (of course, not)! Why is the west full of divorces and full of women that are aborting their children in millions every day? And women that are broken? Women pregnant and with children at the age of 15 and 16? Why?!

This is the western standard! Islam has a Waly (guardian) system. It is not just about emotions. A girl can fall in love with man’s words and doesn’t see his true nature. The father (the guardian) isn’t going to do that. The father who cares about his daughter and her interests, or the Waly (the guardian) is (aware of men nature).

Agnostic: I live in Arabic society. Let me tell you that here everything is in secret. Even the children may not be your children because the husband and the women are cheating in secret. They do more (wrong) than west.

Muslim: No! That is exaggeration. I am an Arab as well. You are not telling some random Westerner what is going on (in Arabic countries). So, as an Arab who lived in many Arabic countries and continuously visit Arabic countries due to what I do, I know very well how things are in the Arabic communities. Nobody said that the Arabic communities are perfect. But to say all kids are (illegal) and everything is happening (in secret) is of course exaggeration. That is not true to any extent. Thanks to Allah, we have values as Muslims and as Arabic people generally. We are very protective and jealous. We have very strong protective jealousy. Even non-Muslim Arabs, even Christian Arabs, and Jewish Arabs (have very strong protective jealousy). It’s within our culture. This protective jealousy makes us take care of our family members, the female ones, and that they are not going around doing incorrect things. This exists in Arabic cultures generally, not just in Muslim cultures.

Agnostic: I disagree with you. I am 50 years old!

Muslim: These are your opinions. You have not provided evidence. Anyone can say opinions and you can say I agree, or I disagree. It doesn’t prove anything until you give me stats and evidence and things that can be proven. Anyone can say there is a secret. Your experience is limited to those you know who are 20, 30, 100, 2000 people or even 10,000 people - if you have met so many people in your life. How can you apply (the experience of) 10,000 to hundreds of millions of people? You cannot do that. So, even if your experience is true, it is not proof. Anyone can speak of secret societies. That cannot be proven. If you don’t provide evidence, it (your opinion) is just a claim.

Now, let me ask you a question: A girl hits the age of puberty, between the age of 8 to 14, when they are - what we call - teenagers, which can go up to 19. When they are at that age, are they sexually active and do they have sexual desires?

Agnostic: Yes!

Muslim: Ok. What is your solution for that, especially when they are surrounded by, as in the west, by boyfriends and girlfriends, and loving each other and telling each other words, social media of women, Kim Kardashian, pornography, and all of this stuff. In this day and age, tell me, until they reach your perfect age, how do you fix that (sexual desires)?

Agnostic: They can do whatever they want, but we should first educate them. It is ok to have sex, why not?!

Muslim: Let me get this straight. So, it is a problem (for teenagers) to get married to a 30-year-old man, but it is not a problem for a 13-year-old girl to go around sleeping with men and do whatever she likes?!

Agnostic: you mean a 13-year-old, or teenager like 16, 17?

Mulsim: Teenager is teens, 13 (thirteen), 14 (fourteen), it is all teen. You hear the word teens (13, 14, 15, 16, 17) all of this is teenager.

Agnostic: Okay! Of course, I have sex but not to get married. Marriage is a big word, it is not something easy, it means house, raising children!

Muslim: With all due respect, you are an example of why the west is destructed and of why there is no common sense in whatever you are saying. Because your issue is no longer about the age that they will have sex. It’s about the sanctimony and honor and the protection which marriage gives.

You are proposing what has destroyed the west today, with girls at the age of 13 and 14 shagging boys under and behind trees in Oxford and Cambridge and having them pregnant at the age of 15 and 16 despite sexual educations in the school and practicing safe sex, leading to hundreds of millions of abortions (which are massacres, killing babies yearly), leading to girls who are psychologically traumatized by these boys who knocked them up, and leading to single mother homes - see the book THE BOY CRISIS by Warren Farrell which talks about how the biggest criminals in the west come from single parent homes - which are products of what you are proposing: Letting teenage girls have sex and do whatever they want when they are young.

On the contrary, you say the problem is marriage, which is the solution. Why is marriage the solution? Because it is under the guardianship and supervision of parents – the family is involved – and it is not shady thing happening in secrets behind closed doors. For you, the problem is not a kid who is going to come and tell a girl few words and then do what he wants and then go to the next one. No! There are responsibilities. You want to get married? Okey, you have got to man up, take care of the girl, have intercourse with her and put your money where your mouth is, and you are responsible also to her family.

Now you have a problem with that, which solves western problems and general problems of the world, because it comes from the creator, and you are proposing: Have intercourse all you like, no problem. And you say: Common sense!!!

Agnostic: Yes, because you are talking about western society like (troubled society) and you are seeing Arabic societies as something better, while it is not.

Muslim: I am not here to defend the Arabic society. I am here to defend Islam. Yes, the Muslim society is better a million times.

Agnostic: The highest rate of rapping is in our countries, the Muslim society. 

Muslim: Which country? That is false. Cite the statistics that you are quoting right now. You did not cite any statistics or any country. You just randomly said: The highest rape is in Arab countries. That’s it. That is a lie.

Agnostic: Yeah, I will give you. I have read it before.

Muslim: Ok! Google it right now. There is nothing you could give. But, let me give you actual statistics rather than making things up, without even giving a country. I will give you an example. Look at France. There is a calligraph study in France that happened about sexual harassment in busses, and the result was 100% sexual harassment. They surveyed around 600 women. All of them reported sexual harassment on busses or public transportation!

Look at biggest study done by the European Union, it’s called “Violence Against Women: Every Day and Everywhere” (https://fra.europa.eu/en/news/2014/violence-against-women-every-day-and-everywhere) and they talk to you about the stats in the west. They are not talking about any Muslim country. They are talking about western America. It’s the biggest study done by the EU. These are actual studies being presented. On the other hand, you’re just saying stuff without any proof.

Let’s finalize this discussion, because I have answered what you wanted to ask. Now, do you have any other questions for me that I can answer before I let you go? Last question.

Agnostic: No, it’s ok. No more questions.

Muslim: No worries. Hopefully, you will return to common sense and reality before you die. Because when you die, the west and having intercourse during your teens are not going to save you. It is pleasure talking to you!

https://youtu.be/CXLU_RiHFrk?si=cgyHhQg_4faGlVzn

Outcome

The discussion ends without agreement. The Agnostic remains convinced that “child marriage” is harmful and that young girls cannot consent, while the Muslim maintains that the Islamic system - when properly understood and applied - is logical, protective, and superior to the destructive Western alternatives.

Conclusion: Who is More Factual?

On the specific topic of Islamic law, the Muslim is more factual. His description of the classical legal doctrine, the separation of contract and consummation, the age of puberty as a legal milestone, and the theoretical safeguards, is accurate from a theological and historical standpoint.

On the broader topic of child development and modern human rights  - that are based on liberal values ​​and absolute individual freedom - the Muslim is also more factual and accurate. The Agnostic’s concerns are based on common and general knowledge and the modern understanding of maturity and the documented harms of child marriage as a global practice.

In essence, they are arguing on two different planes:

The Muslim is arguing from the perspective of theological and legal theory within a specific religious framework and observable social consequences. The Agnostic is arguing from the perspective of modern human rights, and observable social consequences.

The Muslim's facts about his own religion are correct, but they describe an ideal system. The Agnostic's opinion about the potential for abuse are correct, but they are applied to critique the Islamic system from the outside without fully engaging with its internal logic and safeguards.

The most factual view would be one that acknowledges both: the internal logic and rules of the Islamic legal tradition as it is written, while also recognizing the valid modern criticisms of how those rules can manifest in practice.

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